MSU Extension MI Ag Ideas to Grow With

 - With us today, and Klein thank you for your help there. Dr. Klein Ileleji is a grain storage specialist at Purdue University. Dr. Ileleji we're lucky to have you here with us today, and your first talk is gonna be, New Insights and Technologies for Monitoring Stored Grain. So thank you for joining us. - Thank you very much Mike, for that introduction. I am just opening up my presentation and I'll get it started right away here. Just give a second. - [Mike] And while you're doing that, I mean, it just fits really well. Your topic fits really well following Samantha's talk. - Yeah, it does and thanks Samantha, for a lot of very good information you provided in your talk. And like Mike said, it does help with my talk. So again, good morning everyone out there, I am Klein Ileleji a Professor and Extension Engineer in Agriculture and Biological Engineering at Purdue. And my areas of expertise is in grain post harvest. What I will be sharing with you this morning is New Insights and Technologies for Monitoring Stored Grain. Typically, when I give this type of a talk with respect to this topic of monitoring stored grain, I like you out there who ha have grain bins or operators of elevators. Give me thumb up online, just go to your screen and give it thumbs up. If you have any store grain monitoring system in your grain bin. Temperature, cable, CO2, monitors, that kind of a thing. Can you please give me thumbs up? I just wanna see how many people out there use any form of monitoring technology. I give you 30 seconds for that. And I'm going through the least. If Mike if you don't mind, help me count the thumb up I have. Well, I'm not sure I was able to count, but typically when I give this talk, I don't get really many hands up. And that shows the lack of monitoring on US farms. Just trying to forward my slide. - [Mike] Yes, Klein, we only had one, one hands up. - Okay, one hands up. - [Mike] I think you're right. - Yeah. In the US and (indistinct) evidence suggests less than 10% of money train goes on on farms than possibly 30% in grain elevators. What I'm gonna present to you is the importance of monitoring new insights, and also encourage you to think about getting some form of monitoring technology, If you don't have one already. The first thing I always say is, grain quality means walker safety. Grain quality mean walker safety It doesn't look like that but as it relates to unloading bins, grain going out of condition, appears to be the major cause of grain flow issue, which unfortunately has led to grain entrapment incidences, many being fatal. Dr. Bill Field in my department, who's an active specialist has done a lot of work in this area. And one of the things he found out in his research is that grain going out of commission is the number one leading cause of being entrapment incidences. Again, grain quality means walker safety. So ensuring quality grain is also taking care of workers safety. And that's one of the things we like starting out there because people don't make this correlation. I have two pictures out there. This incidents happened in 2020. I was part of one of the consultants that the company consolidated to try to figure out how to essentially stop the fire in the bin that was taking place at that time. And the potential explosion that could have occurred if that the gases had become combustive and exploded. And obviously it would've taken down a lot of the adjacent bin in that facility. The question is, how can we prevent this? What type of data do we need to timely arrest this kind of situation? What options do we have? This incident cost over $1 million to the company. Interestingly, when it happened and I interviewed the operators of the company, the operations manager. They actually knew when it started. So the question I asked was if they knew when it started, that they knew when the bin had started heating up, why they did not take action? And one of the things I've also been involved in other types of large losses like this in the last three years. And the other interesting fact that I found out it was not that these workers or the operations managers. It's not that they did not know about what was going on. They did not have enough information of how serious the problem was. Again, they knew the grain was heating up, but they couldn't tell marketing that the bin needed to be emptied. Because marketing will obviously have to seek for buyer in a lot of elevators. Get rail cars aligned and all that. And with no accurate information as to the accident of the problem, they just decided not to enter the bin and sit at it. And one of the major reasons was lack of monitoring. They didn't have good monitoring systems. That was able to give them an idea of the problem. So let's look at what monitoring should do. And let's try to orientate our minds as to what monitoring actually should be like. First monitoring is about securing your inventory. What is the value for grain inventory to your organization? Okay, and when you think of monitoring, you're thinking of monitoring an asset that has a value. A grain is not just in a bin, it's not just feed and a bin. It has a monetary value like money in the bank. And the question when you think of monitoring is what's the cost of monitoring that financial asset, in terms of dollar value. What majors have you taken to secure that grain asset? I always give this example that, if farmers actually had cash, dollars in that grain bin, rather than grain corn, wheat, soybean, they will actually have all kinds of cameras and alarm systems to prevent theft. It should be the same thing for grain assets, because that has a financial value. And how many people have stored grain monitoring systems in the green bin? And that's what was my first question. So what do you monitor in your grain and what do they measure? That's the first thing. What do you monitor? And what do they a measure? So we're going to go through a list of things and discuss a little bit about what those mean. So what do you monitor? Is it temperature? Is it CO2? Is it other things? What do you measure? And I'm looking at the value that the... Are you measuring the temperature in the headspace or temperature of the grain? How do you measure that value? Was an effort? Was the sensor type, is it a manual system? Is it something instituted that is continuous? Where do you measure it or location in the bin? Headspace, grain bin, plenum. How do you measure it in minutes, hours, daily? What does the metric indicate? Does it indicate a symptom of grain condition or is it loss of grain? Again does it indicate a symptom of the grain condition or does it indicate loss of grain? And depending on what that is, your response or action is going to be different. What do you mean? What do values mean? For example, if you're measuring CO2, what does 500 ppm in a head speed mean versus 1000 ppm? And how do you use the values to make management decisions? In my research that's the one of the main thing I am looking at. How do farmers, how do grain operators managers, use those values to make management decision? And unfortunately, a lot of the monitoring system give a lot of values, but later interpretation of what those mean. So let's start by looking at measuring CO2. We know CO2 generation in stored grain is common because stored grain is a man made leaving ecosystem. CO2 is generated from fungi growth on grain, and you can see, it can be generated either by an aerobic reaction. Starch reacting with oxygen in air to get CO2 and water and heat. And that's the type of reaction typically used that goes on when fungi or mold is growing on grain. CO2 also occurs in an inner anaerobic situation where the situation is (indistinct) of oxygen. You can still have some CO2 generation as in chemical combustion or small green grain. And you can see there even though less molecules of CO2 and mold C2H5 a mold that and heat. The other leaving organism that causes CO2 is insects. In insect respiration, CO2 is produced and that could be an indication of the levels of insect activity. So let's look at what we monitor in grain and what they measure. And I have the first column parameters that we can monitor. And the second two columns I have indicates symptom of a problem, indicates grain quality loss. So temperature, temperature is it a symptom of a problem or green quality loss? off the bad I'll say it's a symptom of a problem because as you increase, if you major in high temperatures in green bin, you know the most likely, there's a mold condition in hot spot occurring. And potentially that will lead towards grain quality loss. Moisture, is it a symptom of a problem or grain quality loss? Well, you could put it in both categories, or you could start out by having how much moisture your grain. It indicates a problem. And potentially if that goes on for a long time, you obviously leads the grain quality loss. CO2 is an indication of a problem. Smell an indication of a problem that will lead to loss. Insect population, if you measure that, depends on the types of insect. Obviously if you're measuring a lot of insect population that will lead to quality loss there. Like our previous speaker mentioned, some insects like the hairy fungal (indistinct). If you see that, it's an indication or symptom of moly grain. One thing I wanna mention about smell. People tell me, well, turn on you fan. If you smell moly grain, then you go in and check what's going on. I want to suggest smell is not a good measure of quality or monitoring. When your grain starts to stink. In my mind, probably too late. The way I always put it, is typically we have leftovers, right? Especially after Thanksgiving. And when you go to your fridge, you open your leftovers. A lot of us do this sleeve test and no one will smell and find out food is stinky or getting bad, or has an off odour. Or will decide to microwave and then eat it. And no one does that. By the time grains starts smelling you already having quite a bit of quality loss. And so smell is a bad indicator actually, as a way of using that as a measure of monitoring grain. And that's why CO2 is important. Measuring CO2 'cause you're going to be catching problems before deterioration begins, any active deterioration. So let's look at what some of the things that can help us begin to see whether we have a problem or not. And I pull up this table, which is a table on the storage life of grain. Just to describe the table briefly, some of you might have seen this table. It's a table that uses two numbers, temperature of the grain and the moisture content of the grain to estimate the amount of months or days, you can keep that grain under those conditions, after which it's going to incur quality loss by one grain. So if it was at US number one. If you kept it on the certain conditions after which it's going to go to number two. I'm gonna quickly explain this table. Table we call it the max maximum storage time for the grain. For this particular table is for corn and soybean. The top most row, I have my moisture here is for corn. The bottom is for soybean. And this is moisture kind west basis. The first column is temperature in Fahrenheit. And I will just explain how you interpret this table. I have a yellow box and the I'll just explain using boxed numbers. And it goes for any number by looking at those two figures of temperature and CO2. So let's look at 9.2, the first one of the column my box, 9.2. And I'll say for corn, if corn was at 15% and the temperature was at 60 Fahrenheit, corn can be kept under those conditions, 15% and 60 for up to 9.2 months after which is going lose US grade by one. So if that corn was at US number one, it will go to US number two, go down to US number two, after 9.2 months. For soybean, you look at 13% and 60 and that's 9.2 months. So having said that, if you look across this table, as we increase moisture content from the left to the right, you'll see the numbers or the months go down. As we'll increase temperature from top to bottom from 40 to 80, you can see also the months go down. So what does this mean to you? It means you're immediately after you've harvested your grain in the farm. If you can cool your grain as fast as possible, down to 40 or below, then you bring in and you appropriately dry your grain to the right moisture content. So typically for corn 15, for soybean 13, if you wanna store within a year. You can see, you can hold it for quite a bit of time. That winter period of cool temperatures gives you an extended period of storage life in which your grain basically will not change. However, as the weather warms up, it gets harder. You can see the grain starts to warm up and then your storage life begins to decrease as we increase temperature. So what does that mean? It means obviously dry appropriately is important and you dry depending on your marketing plan. If you want to store for quite an extended period of time beyond the year, you don't want to hold that 15, you want to hold that 14 or even go down to 13 because then you are increasing your storage life. So let's look at some grain spoilage locations in the bin. And this was put up... This diagram and inside was put by me based on my over 20 years of experience, doing this. Doing experiments in grain bin, listing farmers, having calls and all that. And I categorized the grain bin by looking at what I call four zones of problem or where you typically would see problem in the storage life cycle of grain. The first one is a, the surface of the grain. And typically you see things like caking and molding on grain surface. Which is caused by a repeated condensation of that air exchange between the headspace and the grains surface. That's one zone. Typically you want to look at when monitoring new grain bin. The second zone is the side walls. The side walls do suffer from condensation, or sometimes you have snow drifts. When snow blows into the grain bin, it drifts and stick to the wall. And over time, remember the metal bin, the wall will heat up first, that snow will melt and just sit down right to the bottom. And typically you see this during unloading, you see a lot of grain sticking to the side walls, sometimes active molding. The third part is the center. The center, you can see excessive moldings or caking this typically what cakes up, especially if you do not core that grain bin, by pulling out all the fines. It warms up, you have hot spots. A lot of the insects will congregate there because it's warmer. You could have, if there's (indistinct) here at the center, you could have some dripping or condensate drip back gone to the center and you can see spoilage. And when you start having spoilage at the center, one of the things that happens, is that when you turn on your fans, you have poor distribution of air. And even though you might think you're raiding your grain bin, because that is very compact to find, especially if you've not corded and you have a molding to occur, things will just keep growing. I mean, I'm talking of with respect mold. And then lastly, at the bottom, sometimes you see caking and molding at the bottom and that is due to leakage. Remember in the plan on there, is where you have another air interface with grain and potential insect average. But these are the four regions that typically, you see some form of grain going out of conditional or problems in a grain bin. I'm not saying these are the only four regions, but these are commonly the four regions that these things occur. So I'm going to segue to some results of a study, we are currently undertaken at Purdue University in my research facilities. A research facility that has 16 pile bins, eight of the pile bin have stored grain, stored corn primarily. And we are doing some monitoring tests to understand changes over the season with respect to how the ecosystem behaves, insects, temperature, potential hot spot development. And the whole goal there is to get some good understanding of the biological activity that occurs as over the season in store grain. And then use that information to begin to understand how to transform a lot of the various data types we get from some of these monitoring systems. So this is what we are measuring. We are measuring grain temperature. We are measuring headspace and plenum temperature. We are measuring headspace and plenum CO2. Insect pest population. Moisture, bulky density and approximate analysis. We measure that from the grain we sample monthly, we also are conducting a susceptibility spoilage test using a Solvita test kit. And over time, we are also gonna measure US grade with respects to understanding if there's a correlation between some of these parameters, we are monitoring and US grade as we will have it. And the whole goal there is to see if we can make that correlation, because ultimately what we are finding out that is going to be most beneficial to farmers and grain operators. Is if they can use the data for actionable management decisions. The only way you're going to get folks to begin to make good decisions is if they do not make those decisions, it affects their pocketbook. For example, the pictures of burn grain, I told you that about over a million was lost. If the managers knew the quantities or the value or cost that can be inured with lack of doing anything, then they're prompted to make management decisions. Even though sometimes it might feel like flying blind. So what I'm showing you here is our facility on the right side. I told you we have 16 pile bins. I'm showing you just one bin. Each of this grain bins have actually four temperature cables. We have a seal is sensor with CO2 and temperature and relative humidity. At the Plenum, we also have a sensor that measures CO2, temperature, relative humidity as well. Each four of the cables have 36 temperature sensors. One cable has a temperature and relative humidity sensors. And then I told you about the CO2, temperature and RH, and the headspace and plenum. One of the things, these bin are small. They're not like large commercial facility. They're about 500 bushels, but we only put 350 something, 53 in this case, I'm showing you. Because we want some headspace to be able to go in stand and sample grain. I just show you the picture here on the bottom right of CO2 sensors installed in the plenum. Now, you typically you don't see installation of CO2 sensors and the plenum. Why we are doing that is we are trying to see if how does CO2 behave if you measure it in a head space, compared to the plenum. And if there's some correlation. And the whole goal is to see the best location to actually put that sensor. I'm not advertising this company, but it's an Amber Ag System. I like this system, it's very easy to put on. By the way, I put it on with my student. It took just 10 minutes to install. Quite amazing. And this whole system with the Solo PV Panels. The plate has a magnet, you just magnets on, on the top of your silo and is pretty firm. And what I'm showing you is actually a picture dashboard on my cell phone. I actually get all the data on the cell phone. And so it's very handy. The other thing I like for this system is that they color code what they call various regimes of danger. So for example, if you're in the 500 to 1000 regime, things appear safe with done tests that indicate that if you're measuring 1000 of below PPM, things are not that terrible. If you are in the 1000 to 1,500, then you need to look at inspecting your bin. That's when you want to open you the hatch and look in to see if you're beginning to fill, their signs of molding starting. And then if you're in the 1,500 to 2000 range, that's when you need to take action to look at do doing something. And that's when for sure something very active is going on. You need to look at, probably turning that grain and (indistinct) selling it or something like that. Now, while the company actually used a a lot information from previous work I did with my colleague, Dr. Meyer, who's not Iowa State University. But even though this is color coded, it looks... I think it's quite decent. We still do not have a good understanding of the best way to value what's going on. For its example, you could ask the question if I saw 1,500 above to 2000, yes, take action. But how much of that grain is really going bad? Is it the whole bin that's going bad or is it just a pocket? And that's the challenge with this type of data, because even though I'm getting good data and I'm getting some form of advice for a farmer or a grain elevator that has a marketing plan or probably did not plan to empty that bin right away. You know there are a lot of things that come to mind. Is this just a small pocket of grain that is in producing that amount level of CO2? Which it could be. Or is it large? Or how can we quantify that grain? Those are some of the questions that we as researchers are grappling with. And also people are trying to understand to utilize this type of systems. I want to talk a little bit about monitoring of insects. Samantha did a great job talking about the various types of insects. How to identify them. What they are secondary feeders versus primary feeders, which are more dangerous or more injurious to grain quality. And one of the challenges we've not really found yet is how do you measure insect activity in a way that you do not have to actually physically go into the bin. Flight traps are used and there's from insect limited to measure levels of insect activity and where you have to go in once in a while to change this traps. And you can use the probes here. There's a mineral probe, carbon probe to monitor insects. But again, you still have to go in to check the traps and count the insects. There's a system called the insector. That's sold by OPI Systems. We have some in our grain bin where it's just like the metal probe. When insects fall into this probe, it's actually counted. This system here, you can see the blown out picture actually counts insect as they fall through this panel and break it diode. And they can even identify the insects, based on the silhouette, the insects producers. It's not accurate to some extent. I have a very interesting story. If I have time later to talk about, using the system in one of my extension talks in Nigeria. The surprise it gave to folks who were at the meeting when we compared what we saw on the screen. And when we eventually went into the bin to pull out the trap. But this system is not common, I'll say on and anywhere in not America. I heard that not a lot has been sold. Again, with this kind of a system, once in a while, you still have to go in and empty the trap. So let's look at some of the results we got quickly. We started monitoring. So we put the bin in... I mean, we bin the grain in November of 2020, we chilled below 35 degrees Fahrenheit. And we started monitoring in June. And I shared what type of data we collecting. This is just data on the approximate analysis. We're monitoring eight bin, five to 16, just looking at this highlighted red box and the box density. We are within the range for the length of time to hold the grain. You can see between June, July and August overall, that grain is losing moisture slightly. And that's probably due to the aeration practices that we had with respect bulk density. We see some reduction of bulk density or test weight. In some cases, not all in some cases, test weight was maintained. In some cases like the bin number five, you had some reduction. Now let's look at some of the data we got from the headspace and plenum, CO2 levels. I'm just looking at screenshots from my cell phone, like you mentioned. And you can see that CO2 levels peak, CO2 levels. In some cases went above the yellow region, or what shall I say, cream collared region. And the I don't know what to call it that is. But the second region look like pink color region. So anyway, you can see, in some cases you have the peaks of CO2 levels exceeding that. One of the things just to let you know is we are looking at the top most part of bin 5 plenum. We're looking at plenum temperature and CO2 levels at the top most graphs and the bottom most graphs. we are looking at the headspace. Looks some similarity with those, but not exact. Let's at quickly look at some more these is bin 7, if you look at the plenum at the top and compare that with the headspace, there are some differences. It appears that you have more peaks in the headspace, peak suits levels than at the plenum. Of course, what does that mean? It appears that its best to monitor the headspace than the plenum to get it good at understanding of what's going on in a grain bin. These data is... Forgive me for the jumping of my slides. This data here is for insects we collected. I just want to explain what we did between total insect count in insectors. Total insect count in sieve and total insect count in traps. So the insectors are the prop trap, than electronic trap that I mentioned. That's what is in the top left hand corner. The insect count is actually grain we sample from the bin using a eight foot trier. We took that grain to the lab and we passed it through a sieve. And whatever insect we screened out that's the count. And then the insect count traps are flying insects primarily the Indianmeal moth that Samantha did present on. What we caught in those traps in the head space. So we are looking at three types of insects. Shall I say insects from that are monitored in three different ways. Again, the insect is institute. These are probe traps that are just within the grain they're sitting the insect, the one is from sieve and from traps. So let's look at insector. You see mostly as you go move into the warmer summer period, numbers climb. And then as the cold front came in as the weather comes down, the numbers start going down. Now, one of the things you want to understand about insect caught by the insector that has the probe ceiling is that the insect has to walk into the trap. So another way to look at this is when it's warm, the insects are very active. They're roaming around, looking for food, looking for sex partners to make and things like that. And they'll fall into the traps. And then as the weather cools down, obviously they become more dominant, and enhance the possibility of falling into the trap, are smaller. Likewise insect in traps, the insector, the flight traps. We see the same thing, catches intake counts going up into the warm summer and then going down as we go into the fall. Interestingly, we don't see a lot of insects from the sieve as we see caught in the trap. So what does that tell us? It tells us that when you go to grain elevator and they sample your trap and the screen for insects, even though they might not screen a lot, or even if you, does not mean you don't have a lot of insect in your grain bin, right? Because look at the grain bin, we are counting thousands of insects. Look at the numbers, we are looking at from 1000 to 9,000 in our insector. And yet when you come to looking at what we actually screen out of the grain, we sample. And by the way we sample it using an eight foot trier. We barely even pulled a 100. So what's the take home message? The fact that you sample grain and you're screening out and you see a couple of insects, does not mean you don't have an insect in your grain bin. The question becomes, is there a way to extrapolate the data of sieve, okay? Or best, how do we even develop better traps that are institute to monitor this type of activity? 'Cause surely it tells us in a small bin, like we have there are obviously a lot of insects brewing in there in the summer. I know time is going out. I'll just show you this data and then we put a summary to my talk. The other data we have here is CO2 levels. And just to help you understand what we have, we have the blue line here is CO2 in the headspace, at the top most left hand, okay? And then you have, the black curve there is temperature. And then you have the top most brown is relative humidity. And the maroon color there is... I don't know what I can't see here in my... But I'm just gonna... I can't see it here in my graph clearly. I'll just focus on the CO2 that's what I wanna focus on. What I wanna focus on here in the CO2, the blue is that you can see the levels of CO2 going up, trending up. If you follow the second graph on your right and at the bottom, right and top, right. So CO2 levels going up as we go into the summer. Now, I don't like the way these graphs are. And you can see even me trying, having a hard time to interpret them, because really they just all mean a bunch of lines, right? And one of the things in my research, I'm working on is how do I convert this data into a way that will present farmers and grain managers with more knowledge as to what's going on. And in fact, better understanding and interpretation of that data in order to make actionable decisions. I wouldn't bore you with these lines. I've taken time to explain. It's just another bin to explain, it's similar thing. I'll just move right to the conclusion here. Okay, let me just go right to the conclusion. So from our results, this is what we got, insect levels, very seasonally in the store grain bin. And like you saw the insect numbers will climb as you go in the summer. And then they start to go down as you go into the winter. By the way, we try to kill them by freezing the bin in the winter. Does not mean they all die. Now CO2 levels increase from ambient level, beginning in the spring and went back to ambient levels in the fall. CO2 levels in the spring and summer are partly due to grain condition. Primarily temperature levels and insect population level. The question is how do we convert CO2 produce by insect and differentiate that from CO2 produced by fungi grown in grain? So there's some understanding that needs to be made or known. And how can we report CO2 to be better understood by store grain managers? With that I will thank Infosys Limited, company that provided some of the support used for this work. And for Amber Ag a for helping installing some of the sensors used. And for my PhD students, who's currently working on his research thesis in this topic. As well as three, very young and able weather makers Undergrad students Kyle, Iman and Charles. With that, I take questions. Thanks for listening. - Thank you very much Klein, excellent presentation, a lot of really good information. And you really did emphasize the importance of monitoring. And what the risk to that, our grain resources. So there are a lot of questions. And Klein, I would ask that if you... Some of these are gonna be quite specific. So is there a chance that maybe you could type your answer into some of those? I will try to ask the more general ones that I think everyone would benefit from, but there are some that are quite specific. - Okay. - All right. So one of the first questions is in fumigation and Klein I don't know if this is for you as well. But if it is, maybe we can post to your talk. But are there any considerations or not to fumigate that are often missed and should we be fumigating on an annual basis? - So just a quick comment I'm not sure is it Pete Mueller, given the talk next on fumigation? Just to quickly say that monitoring actually helps with when to fumigate. And it's important, especially if you can monitor your insects. So monitoring does help because you know exactly when your thresholds or your acceptable threshold have exceeded before you fumigate. The other thing about fumigate and monitoring it, it helps you to understand the performance of a fumigation and when a rebound is occurring. So you'll be able to know good from bad fumigation or even fumigator. That's why monitoring is important. - Good, good, good. I really appreciate that. Another question from the same person came in is talking about global grain markets. And is there any concerns with either the fumigants we're using or by not fumigating when we should be fumigating that might affect our global marketability of our grain. - I know overall a lot of exporters especially if you go into certain countries require that you fumigate for fights sanitary reasons before they get in there. If you with methyl bromide out of the way and first thing becoming a lot more resistant by the number of insects. Fumigators are having a challenge to get the right types of acceptable fumigants in place. I know Pete Mueller from Fumigation Services and Supply does a great job on fumigation. I've worked with him. I will say, it's good to work. Don't look at your fumigation as your end kill strategy. Well, rather try to implement good management strategies like temperature management to reduce the loads of your insects so that when you're fumigating you're not having to fumigate a lot, you know? So practice good management and then obvious fumigation as a means to meet your FIDA sanitary recommendation. - Very good, Klein. It feeds into the next question is for organic grain production or grain markets do we have any options for insect management other than like you say just good grain handling practices, and those kinds of things, but is there... What other options for organic producers? - Very good. There are a couple of options, not many so you talked about good management, that's one. CO2 is another, using CO2. You can use CO2 as a fumigate and I haven't done extensive work on that, but it's an option. And the last option is ozone. Ozone is also an option. That's not last option, I think. The last option is the method of storage, hermetic. If you store hermetically you will not have to even fumigate or use any of the methods 'cause hermetic storage will kill or not only kill any residual insects is going to prevent anything from growing. But large scale hermetic storage system is a challenge, but it's possible. So those are the method, CO2 or ozone and then storage method by using hermetic, air tide storage. - Thank you very much. Very good. Good answers to that, that question. We have time for one last question and I'm gonna paraphrase 'cause it's kind of a long question, but it has to do with grain bin entrapment and you did a really good job of talking about it, but what are some things, what management to decisions can be made to avoid situations where grain bin entrapment occur. The person referred to walking down corn when the unloading auger is actually running. There's been people in the bins that are trying to push the grain down and, boy, that seems risky, but just would like some of your comments on that issue. - Yeah, very good. Thank you for that question. And in my next talk I'll talk about some with respect to an entrapment event takes time to build up. If you look at what causes it is something... Is a series of manage decisions, not all management principals, not being adhere to over time. There are results in someone going into the bin. So the first step is to start acting things, doing the right things from being in that grain, make sure the bin is cleaned. Make sure the moisture content is correct, is dried properly. It's cool properly. When you be that grain, make sure you core the bin. You pull out the center, which has a lot of fines so it doesn't build up and compact that grain and prevent good aeration. Make sure you have active aeration in the head space to prevent condensation and crossing at the top. If you do all those things you wouldn't have to have... You wouldn't have a flow problem. You wouldn't have to walk the grain. Because of the lack of doing of those things those conditions occur and then people have to go in a bit to prevent all this. - Thank you very much. Very critical, very critical situation, life or death situation so thank you.